tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post635531047309009572..comments2024-03-26T07:58:59.761+00:00Comments on I'll think of something later: Bach and Dante over EasterDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-39268200418949099922018-04-13T17:41:49.691+01:002018-04-13T17:41:49.691+01:00Not quite 'led by the Nose,' then..but you...Not quite 'led by the Nose,' then..but you're right, it's still Kovalyov's nose, however highly it thinks of itself. I was reminded of the work by the Gogolian references in Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk, Richard Jones' superlative production of which made a comeback at the Royal Opera last night.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-33316467900229344682018-04-13T14:19:43.668+01:002018-04-13T14:19:43.668+01:00To your question, yes, Szot played Kovalyov. (I se...To your question, yes, Szot played Kovalyov. (I see I said “title role,” when I should have said lead—though perhaps in the case of The Nose, that too is ambiguous!)Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15674930917585246294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-35910670738818828492018-04-13T13:05:21.892+01:002018-04-13T13:05:21.892+01:00I think we're now running along parallel lines...I think we're now running along parallel lines, if not at crossed purposes, so I bow out now.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-40969402410136778532018-04-13T11:34:05.534+01:002018-04-13T11:34:05.534+01:00As someone with a degree in philosophy I agree wit...As someone with a degree in philosophy I agree with the widest enquiries. It would be wonderful if the views expressed by Dante, the Greeks, the Enlightenment, were true - and they are true - for our cultural worlds. All I am saying is that we should not assume that everyone in the world has minds and personalities structured in the same way. Some take their pick in a way we find terrible. What is added to natural selection can vary. <br /><br />David Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-26162384251030033462018-04-13T11:12:49.367+01:002018-04-13T11:12:49.367+01:00No other viewpoint on the subject is based on any ...No other viewpoint on the subject is based on any evidence either. Take your pick. There's more to our existence than natural selection - Darwin would be the first to agree with that. Why do you think so many of the great scientists turned to philosophy?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-66328001898156616202018-04-13T11:03:30.986+01:002018-04-13T11:03:30.986+01:00I argue that an assumption that " we all star...I argue that an assumption that " we all start from the same point of love" is not based on any evidence. Starting by looking at the human race, it seems unlikely, unless we speak only of the instincts for the preservation of the race. I agree with George Orwell. I suppose, also, that to try to believe that it is true is not a good starting point. I was taken through parts of the Divine comedy by an Italian speaker, and read some of it myself, but some time ago. That it is a great work - of the first rank - cannot be denied. All I am saying is that there are those who do not see the world in the same way. I strikes me that I should add that a thorough study and understanding of Dante is a wonderful path to take for us ourselves in our culture, and perhaps as a set of values to promote world wide.David Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-2478547113750745272018-04-13T10:43:03.725+01:002018-04-13T10:43:03.725+01:00You can't prove that; no-one can. Dante's ...You can't prove that; no-one can. Dante's premise may be poetic but it is no less plausible, in fact more so in my view. And the wonder of it is how far outside his given context he moved. Like all great artists, he saw beyond. You and I are not, and do not, but we can choose to be enlightened by those who do. But answer the question: have you read the whole of the Divine Comedy? I still haven't (we move on to Paradiso next term).Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-20388169386986182862018-04-13T10:38:34.481+01:002018-04-13T10:38:34.481+01:00Your comment states " we all start from the s...Your comment states " we all start from the same point of love". I do not agree. As a result of evolution we may have some inbred characteristics to preserve the race ( antipathy towards people not like us, but also a desire to support each other in our own group, support for our children etc) but in general we are a tabular rasa. And what is written on the tabula rasa is often not love in any general sense.There are for the human race ( apart from the instincts for the preservation of the race already mentioned) no moral rules, no rights, no wrongs, except what our environment dictates, or we choose - and the great thing about the Greeks and the Enlightenment is that they showed us the rational way of choosing. I greatly admire Dante, and had not considered the matter we are now discussing, since I suppose that I have always seen his wonderful analysis of ( sorry) the human predicament in the light of the fact that he writes and thinks completely in the context of the Christian view of the world, which, as the early fathers of the church hoped to demonstrate, emerged from the Greeks ( "In the beginning was the Word [Logos] - Gospel of John). I would repeat what I think to be a practical point in my analysis - we should not think of all people who take actions we disagree with as people like us who have taken the wrong decisions. They are different, of course to varying degreesDavid Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-15813496101702137452018-04-13T09:41:52.482+01:002018-04-13T09:41:52.482+01:00You miss the point, David, debated in the comments...You miss the point, David, debated in the comments as well as richly stated by Dante in those beautiful passages - we all start from the same point of love, but are shaped by our environments. Dante was a remarkably independent thinker, however embedded in a certain culture. The pure essence of his starting point always did and always will apply to human nature. But have you actually read the Divine Comedy? It amazes me at every turn, even though it sometimes veers off (as in the end of Purgatorio, which I've just finished) into the fundamentals of Augustinian religious thinking.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-8054809718013827092018-04-13T08:10:56.946+01:002018-04-13T08:10:56.946+01:00George Orwell argued that the idea that all people...George Orwell argued that the idea that all peoples are alike is false. Those produced in deeply different environments and cultures will differ from one another. Robert Conquest goes on from this to describe the post-communist Russians as the result of centuries of absolutism and 70 years under the corrupt and vicious religion of communism. Thus contrary to Anne Frank, people are not all truly good at heart ( as we would define good). And Dante is not correct to say that human nature is not corrupt but merely makes bad choices - if ( to take the Russian example again) we think Putin is like us but makes bad choices we are wrong. He sees the moral and therefore the practical world from a different viewpoint. One does not have to look very far around the world to see further examples, based on religion or on a lust for power ( and why should I care for other people if my own good is fulfilled?). One can say that Dante was embedded in a very clear and wholly pervasive moral environment. He was heir of the Greeks and a forerunner of the Enlightenment. This is not true of many cultures in the world today which he could not even imagine. He thought in the frame of the world as it was in Christian Europe. On the other hand, despite all the problems in the Eastern countries, perhaps the wisdom of their sages will make itself felt. <br /><br />Anne Frank was clearly exceptionally intelligent, and extraordinarily wise for her age and background. She could easily have survived after her arrest, as military space was running out for Hitler, and in fact she died of typhoid, not executionDavid Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-7417358441522492462018-04-13T06:47:04.233+01:002018-04-13T06:47:04.233+01:00I can't thank you enough for all the wisdom an...I can't thank you enough for all the wisdom and perception you bring in that second comment, Sue, which must have arrived while I was responding to the first. I guess Dante's idea that we are all born with love can be quickly warped in a loveless environment - we know how abuse makes abusers, a long chain going back who knows when? As for MLK, only connect: Dante resonates so often, not least with everything I've seen and heard recently (MASS, From the House of the Dead, the Brahms German Requiem in Bremen, various films). On the Anne Frank front, I remember my eldest goddaughter saying very earnestly when she was six, 'but good always triumphs over evil, doesn't it?' I was a bit stumped for an answer on that one, but thinking of how, say, Germany turned itself around after World War Two, I said I thought it probably did, but not necessarily in the lifetimes of those who suffered and died from it. <br /><br />Would Szot have played Kovalyov, the bureaucrat who loses his nose? The nose itself is a 'tenor altino' which howls in the Kazan Cathedral scene. Still reeling from the Royal Opera revival of Richard Jones' production of Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk. So much brilliant, bleak and haunting invention, all rigorously tied together. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-18689216298825623932018-04-13T03:23:28.028+01:002018-04-13T03:23:28.028+01:00This will be no help, but in answer to your questi...This will be no help, but in answer to your question, she liked ALL the top bangy bits. The review of the Mass makes the thrill of it palpable. Thanks for noting it. And I realized I have heard Paulo Szot, whom you mention, as he performed the title role in The Nose at the Met! (I hope, by the way, you’ll see you have another comment from me, this time on the actual subjects of your post!)Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15674930917585246294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-3790686422584374302018-04-12T23:28:09.316+01:002018-04-12T23:28:09.316+01:00Ah, so it was 'our' Andris, whose stupendo...Ah, so it was 'our' Andris, whose stupendous time in Birmingham is now being mirrored by Mirga's fabulous work there. Did I review his Shostakovich 4? I think I did, but I'd have to check. Which 'top bangy bits' did Josie like best? There are quite a few...<br /><br />Meanwhile, I'm feeling very warmly indeed towards Lenny - MASS continues to reverberate. Review is here if you're interested: https://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music-opera/bernsteins-mass-rfh-review-polymorphousness-excelsisDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-42397082192765250092018-04-12T23:23:54.289+01:002018-04-12T23:23:54.289+01:00And now to Bach and Dante: I am listening to BWV 6...And now to Bach and Dante: I am listening to BWV 6 just now, and how lovely it is, for all the reasons you describe. The Dante passages are striking—his thinking seems so thoroughly modern (in the sense, for example, of containing a rich appreciation of ambiguity—no simple truths, let alone answers, here; instead, one must think, and subtly). As an aside, having recently listened to MLK’s “I have reached the mountaintop” speech, I can’t help but think of it when reading that you “shall reach the top of Purgatory Mountain” on your own.<br /><br />Your observation that “Dante is telling us that human nature as such is not corrupt, but simply makes bad choices” is an interesting one. In present times, it’s hard to think it’s so, but then again, it might depend on how we define human nature. Perhaps my greatest quandary is that I believe this, too, on some level, else why be constantly shocked at the amoral perfidy of so many in power at home in the US and around the world? I’m reminded of Anne Frank’s observation “It's difficult in times like these: ideals, dreams and cherished hopes rise within us, only to be crushed by grim reality. It's a wonder I haven't abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart. It's utterly impossible for me to build my life on a foundation of chaos, suffering and death. I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness, I hear the approaching thunder that, one day, will destroy us too, I feel the suffering of millions. And yet, when I look up at the sky, I somehow feel that everything will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall end, that peace and tranquility will return once more. In the meantime, I must hold on to my ideals. Perhaps the day will come when I'll be able to realize them!”<br />Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15674930917585246294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-40784184449709480362018-04-12T22:42:48.729+01:002018-04-12T22:42:48.729+01:00Well, indeed, DDS S4 would win any such contest—an...Well, indeed, DDS S4 would win any such contest—and many others—though actually I found the juxtaposition of the two pieces quite interesting, particularly when one thinks of the common thread of Mahler. More importantly, this was my “intro” to Andris Nelsons, and what an introduction it was! I recall you writing here and there about him and went poking around to see if you’d had an opportunity to review him conducting the Shos 4. I din’t find any on that, though I DID find other interesting commentary from you, re, e.g., his recording of the Shos 8. I would certainly love to hear him conduct that work live! Anyway, the performance (with the BSO) was thrilling, and Josie, who also enjoyed the entire concert, insists I advise you that she particularly loved, in the Shos 4, the “top bangy bits.”Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15674930917585246294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-19577127412111061242018-04-10T22:55:02.399+01:002018-04-10T22:55:02.399+01:00The latter - I mean Frankfurt Airport is a Kafkaes...The latter - I mean Frankfurt Airport is a Kafkaesque nightmare.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-28220337011154969172018-04-10T16:36:52.487+01:002018-04-10T16:36:52.487+01:00Don't you mean Prague Airport? Kafka was from ...Don't you mean Prague Airport? Kafka was from what became Czechoslovakia. and Jean-Guy with whom you stayed is related. Or do you mean that the airport at Frankfurt was Kafka-esque? It was for women for years, since there were not enough ladies loos.David Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-68161272126111548232018-04-10T06:57:12.538+01:002018-04-10T06:57:12.538+01:00Yes, that does rather look like WHA thinking aloud...Yes, that does rather look like WHA thinking aloud (reminds me of being wrestled to the ground at Frankfurt - Franz Kafka - Airport - in a debacle about an onward boarding pass - let's not go there). Actually if you were born at the same time as 'Elektra', that's tantamount to saying your twin sister was an extremely violent character...<br /><br />Age of Anxiety with Fourth Symphony sounds like too much of a sombre thing, though the piano-bar music always sounds good in Bernstein. DDS will 'win'. Having said that I heard MASS again on Saturday and was moved to bits. Another of Marin Alsop's youth assemblages. The 'Street People', needless to say, instantly reminded one of the anti-NRA movement, and there were plenty of other causes for tears.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-13847977679534359542018-04-09T23:42:20.609+01:002018-04-09T23:42:20.609+01:00It was only recently I "discovered" St. ...It was only recently I "discovered" St. John Passion and realized, once again, how much great music I've yet to hear. I will not catch up, and so will simply treasure what I'm able to take in. This Wednesday, I will hear what looks to be a quite interesting pairing: Leonard Bernstein's The Age of Anxiety and Shostakovich's Symphony #4. Coincidentally, while waiting for the window washer today, I was reading poems by Auden and came upon this (not his best, but still of interest, somehow, today):<br /><br />A Shock<br />W.H. Auden (1972)<br /><br />Housman was perfectly right:<br />our world rapidly worsens.<br />Nothing now is so horrid<br />or silly it can't occur;<br />still, I'm stumped by what happened<br />to upper-middle-class me,<br />born in '07, that is,<br />the same time as "Elektra,"<br />gun-shy, myopic grandchild<br />of Anglican clergymen,<br />suspicious of all passion,<br />including passionate love,<br />daydreaming of leafy dells<br />that shelter carefree shepherds,<br />averse to violent weather,<br />pained by the predator beasts,<br />shocked by boxing and blood sports,<br />when I, I, I, if you please,<br />at Schwechat Flughafen was<br />frisked by a cop for weapons.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15674930917585246294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-44582073573778072562018-04-06T17:25:09.238+01:002018-04-06T17:25:09.238+01:00Yes, agreed (I was thinking closer to his time, bu...Yes, agreed (I was thinking closer to his time, but then I guess it's not such a leap from Mozart to Tolstoy). Titian - the early and middle paintings may be mostly just magnificent, but the late ones open a window on the human predicament IMO.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-2967194721495209422018-04-06T16:11:47.056+01:002018-04-06T16:11:47.056+01:00I would add the Russian authors and the Greek trag...I would add the Russian authors and the Greek tragedies. And I can never see Titian in the very top rank. His pictures are beautiful and magnificent, but do not seem to me ( here it comes) to open a window on the human predicamentDavid Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-56651012944304053532018-04-06T13:17:35.128+01:002018-04-06T13:17:35.128+01:00True - where has Dante been all my life, apart fro...True - where has Dante been all my life, apart from the gifts he gave to Tchaikovsky in Francesca da Rimini and Puccini in Gianni Schicchi, and select lines ('nessun maggior dolore' etc)? Shakespeare is surely his only equal in literature, Bach and Mozart in music, Rembrandt and Titian in art.<br /><br />And I can see why the entertainingly devilish characterisations of Inferno so appeal, but it's Purgatorio that is moving me so much. As our class Dante and Virgil observed, it speaks more to our imperfect and, hopefully, striving life in the here and now.<br /><br />I have yet to visit Coventry Cathedral..Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-7851896981129840872018-04-06T13:06:50.797+01:002018-04-06T13:06:50.797+01:00It is splendid that you elevate Dante. Although re...It is splendid that you elevate Dante. Although recognised in this country at arm's length as a great author, I do not think that many people have really grasped much about the Divine Comedy and its insights ( c'est moi qui parle). And this is not a matter of his being from abroad - I would think that the Greek tragedies are better known and better understood than Dante. Even Goethe in Faust? You provoke me to do better<br /><br />One of Graham Sutherland's characteristics is the brilliant shine of the surfaces of many of his paintings. Thus I am not too impressed with his tapestry in Coventry Cathedral - too soft in texture, which is a point irrespective of the drawing itself. Imagine if it had shone outDavid Damanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18409591480349323761noreply@blogger.com