tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post8931859180850133795..comments2024-03-26T07:58:59.761+00:00Comments on I'll think of something later: Silver foxesDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-66280663024329525862014-12-21T19:16:45.751+00:002014-12-21T19:16:45.751+00:00I never met or saw Karajan in real life, however I...I never met or saw Karajan in real life, however I did see and was able to observe at close range in Salzburg <br />Gergiev speaking with technical staff and people around him while he was waiting to get a table at a restaurant. What I saw was a man who appeared uncomfortable and insecure if not a bit nervous. I am told he also drinks a lot. He may be a maestro with a following but to me what I saw was a troubled person who is not sure of his standing and is always looking around. A troubled soul?Laurenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03297393116796129135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-15110816686231401942014-12-20T19:20:33.579+00:002014-12-20T19:20:33.579+00:00Unfortunately the défauts, as you put it, of Karaj...Unfortunately the défauts, as you put it, of Karajan and Gergiev make them inhuman, or inhumane at least. But even with the latter I find it complex, to say the least, that he supported Graham Vick's latest Mariinsky production of Prokofiev's War and Peace. But more on that in a future post.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-37861360361359116472014-12-20T18:57:47.893+00:002014-12-20T18:57:47.893+00:00Well as for the artists, I like them warts and all...Well as for the artists, I like them warts and all. As long as it is enjoyable and of quality, I will forget the défauts which makes them human. Laurenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03297393116796129135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-66715938041138890892014-12-20T11:21:09.909+00:002014-12-20T11:21:09.909+00:00Indeed, Laurent. Shostakovich's setting of Yev...Indeed, Laurent. Shostakovich's setting of Yevtushenko's 'A Career' as the last movement of the Thirteenth Symphony still applies.<br /><br />Sadly the lines about 'those who hurled curses are forgotten, but we remember those who were cursed' doesn't entirely apply, as the harking on Hitler here all too well proves.<br /><br />'Hitler turned out to be a world historical madman, but that was not so clear for quite a time' - sadly not true, Sir David. Maybe not in the world, but in Germany in Jan 1933 it was all too clear. Kurt Weill at that time: 'I think that what is going on here is so sick that it can't last longer than a few months, but I might be wrong'. On 29 January: 'what I'm experiencing now is something like taking lessons in human degradation'. As both Jew and Communist, he quickly fled for Paris, after a couple performances of Silbersee in Leipzig. <br /><br />Of the premiere an observer wrote 'Everyone who counted in German theatre met together for the last time. And everyone knew this. It was the last day of the greatest decade of German culture in the 20th century.'<br /><br />Now, can we cut Hitler out of the conversation and concentrate on the featured artists?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-11257084229624897272014-12-20T09:33:41.929+00:002014-12-20T09:33:41.929+00:00In 1932 Hitler achieved 37% of the vote and in 193...In 1932 Hitler achieved 37% of the vote and in 1933 a coalition of the Nazis, the right wing parties and ( it was envisaged - though not by Hitler) the Centre Party there would have been a majority in the parliament. Perfectly reasonable coalition building. And if Germany had had the "first past the post" system as in the UK Hitler would have achieved a majority on his own. Also it must be remembered that half Europe was in those days run by authoritarian regimes ( Italy, Roumania, Hungary, the Baltic States etc). Germany was not unique in disposing of democracy. For artists and others to cooperate with a dictatorship was unavoidable in many places. Of course Hitler turned out to be a world historical madman, but that was not so clear for quite a timeDavid Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-78966559029461859602014-12-20T00:35:21.607+00:002014-12-20T00:35:21.607+00:00Well careerism is still with us and going strong. ...Well careerism is still with us and going strong. I saw plenty of it in the Foreign Service. Life is all about choices and yes people make very wrong choices. <br />I also saw a video of Furtwangler conducting Berlin Phil for Hitler's Birthday and F looked positively sick, giving Goebbels a limp handshake at the end. But the Regime in Germany was not elected, history shows that and I do not think that any of those conductors gave Nazism legitimacy by playing along. I will have a look at the docu. Laurenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03297393116796129135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-68133407420779024482014-12-19T10:05:15.578+00:002014-12-19T10:05:15.578+00:00Agreed, David: with Karajan the motivation is clea...Agreed, David: with Karajan the motivation is clear - opportunism. But with the others, true, it's more nuanced. <br /><br />Of course Strauss didn't resign from his post of Reichsmusikkamer president - something he never sought but was burdened with in the early 1930s, and probably thought it would be as meaningful as writing parade marches for the Kaiser - but was stripped of it when the letter he wrote to his Jewish collaborator on Die Schweigsame Frau, Stefan Zweig, was intercepted (famously, it spoke of 'only two kinds of people - those who have talent and those who haven't').<br />Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-67175007792406172812014-12-19T10:01:50.765+00:002014-12-19T10:01:50.765+00:00Had Strauss - or Furtwangler - taken a different ...Had Strauss - or Furtwangler - taken a different view and resigned what should have been the action of their successors? Or should no one have agreed to conduct any German orchestra whilst Hitler was in power? Or does our criticism only apply to famous names who might be considered to lend credibility to the regime? <br /><br />But what about the famous Berlin Phil itself? They were sent to occupied countries as a propaganda tool. Should they all have resigned? <br /><br />I also wonder what action should have been taken by industrialists whose factories were converted from tractors to war material. It seems difficult to avoid the conclusion that it was the German people as a whole who were guilty of electing and supporting such a regime, though it is perfectly clear why they did so, bearing in mind the history of German and indeed Europe from 1914 onwards. I prepared an analysis of this last point and though I knew where I was going on the topic I was amazed as I worked out the logic how clearly the voters could be - if not excused, at least understood David Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-44678779871843146302014-12-19T07:35:52.578+00:002014-12-19T07:35:52.578+00:00Do watch the documentary if you get a chance, Laur...Do watch the documentary if you get a chance, Laurent. It's made abundantly clear that Karajan was not a Nazi but that he joined the party because of careerism - certain posts would not have been open to him otherwise. That's fairly clear and no nuances need be found there (the case of Strauss, standing aloof in his musical world-within-world, is quite a different matter).<br /><br />Karajan certainly did amazing things with the Phiharmonia. And he brought his own, sleek sound to the Berlin Phil, but remember his predecessor there was Furtwangler, and for me there's no comparison with this infinitely greater conductor.<br /><br />Gunter Wand strikes me as a far greater musician, too, though we only know him from the time of his grand old mastery. Brahms should be impressive, always, Sir David, but Bruckner can be harder work. Several BBC Symphony players who took part in his Proms Bruckner 8 will tell you it remains their greatest concert experience. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-76061585698365471992014-12-19T07:05:22.285+00:002014-12-19T07:05:22.285+00:00The late Gunther Wand conducted by extending his a...The late Gunther Wand conducted by extending his arms and wiggling his fingers. Admittedly in his last years this was with an orchestra who knew him well. He made Brahms sound impressiveDavid Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-9124708403001283602014-12-19T04:19:10.913+00:002014-12-19T04:19:10.913+00:00In Canada conductors are selected by a Board and n...In Canada conductors are selected by a Board and not the Orchestra musicians. The musicians are consulted about the candidates but the final decision rests with the appointed Board. As for the debate on Karajan, such a man and the period he lived in brings in much debate along the lines of he should have done this and that etc... But how to judge the past if we did not live in it, the whole collaboration with the Nazis is an interesting debate, I was born 11 years after the end of that era and know of it simply by reading books. But I have come to learn that the past is not always as it appears to us today there are nuances, unfortunately we live in a nuance deprived age. Karajan made several orchestra great because of his talent not sure what would have happened if he had not come along. Laurenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03297393116796129135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-59045304183029011452014-12-19T00:55:06.474+00:002014-12-19T00:55:06.474+00:00Very much on topic. Thoughts now are that it's...Very much on topic. Thoughts now are that it's more about shaping with the hands, and no orchestral players need beating. When I did my few sessions under Martyn Brabbins at the Orkney Conductng Course, it felt like the stick controlled and the other hand (my right - I follow in the footsteps of Runnicles and the late, great Paavo Berglund as a left-hander) was free to be a bit more creative. Though of course I soon came a cropper with ideas of rubato.<br /><br />Gergiev famously uses a toothpick and no-one can follow his beat, though it works. Trying to remember whom I saw recently abandoning the baton for key passages. It should come to me. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-5859246171423074522014-12-18T23:54:08.431+00:002014-12-18T23:54:08.431+00:00This is a bit of an aside, but the use of the bato...This is a bit of an aside, but the use of the baton has come up in recent conversation. It doesn't appear to me to be essential, though it seems to be standard in teaching conductors. Any thoughts on this?Susan Scheidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09250142489341777926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-42600110544513120762014-12-18T09:08:13.301+00:002014-12-18T09:08:13.301+00:00The issue of the next successor seems less clear-c...The issue of the next successor seems less clear-cut. Nelsons has said he's not ready for the post, and Thielemann would raise shades of the uncommunicative (in personal terms) autocrat again. Meanwhile the LSO hold back announcing Rattle's appointment there, which I would have thought a given. Maybe there are fund-raising issues.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-82813983224904885612014-12-18T01:45:39.945+00:002014-12-18T01:45:39.945+00:00When Karajan died the chairman of the Berlin Phil ...When Karajan died the chairman of the Berlin Phil - I think he was a cellist - told my tailor ( all right, OK, but he made suits for several of the orchestra) that they had Rattle in mind for "next time" - after Abbado. Interesting that they should have planned ahead so clearly. David Damantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-53712851197647908702014-12-17T23:06:13.017+00:002014-12-17T23:06:13.017+00:00It was vanity pure and simple, David. First and fo...It was vanity pure and simple, David. First and foremost an insult to the musicians before him. Plenty of conductors know the score - whether they have it in front of them or not is immaterial, I'm not especially impressed when that happens. Their absolute priority in my eyes is engagement, communication. Maybe there was alchemy in the way it worked, but it would have worked better with eyes wide open. For most conductors they're more important than hands or baton.<br /><br />Yes, the doc was well balanced, but still extraordinary that no-one except the secretary could be found to say 'I loved/adored him'.<br /><br />Sue, I've heard someone - forget who - rave about Macelaru, and I thought he was up for a top conducting post here, but let's see. Looking forward to seeing him in action. <br /><br />The tyrant conductor era is well and truly over. Musicians then felt they had to tolerate stuff they wouldn't dream of putting up with now. For Karajan the tragedy was that time marched on, and the Berlin Phil players with it. Whatever else one may thing about Rattle, you can't deny his collaborative efforts with an orchestra. Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14506881804082382739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-18486523662069148772014-12-17T20:37:37.083+00:002014-12-17T20:37:37.083+00:00I remember reading somewhere just recently about K...I remember reading somewhere just recently about Karajan's "eyes closed" approach and thinking it peculiar. I had thought, though, that Mutter had genuine affection for him. In any event, it's good to know that a collaborative spirit prevails at present. I wonder whether you've run across Cristian Măcelaru, who conducted the Bard Conservatory Orchestra this last weekend. I thought he drew a very nice performance from the orchestra--and the program was inventive, too. As for Sibelius Scene with Cranes is a beautiful piece. I find the original theater music for Kuolema particularly lovely, too.Susan Scheidhttp://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1248503935075362425.post-87440055470861006822014-12-17T19:43:58.565+00:002014-12-17T19:43:58.565+00:00Karajan's closing his eyes was not vanity, or ...Karajan's closing his eyes was not vanity, or rather maybe vanity on a higher level. He claimed to know the scores and indeed not to need the scores at all, so was following them in his mind's eye.. But this led to his come-uppance. At the performance of Meistersinger for the 1939 State Visit of Prince Paul of Yugoslavia (Princess Paul was the sister of Princess Marina of Kent, and the whole visit was vitally important politically) he made a mistake. <br /><br />" That is extremely inconsiderate to the public as well as the singers " an angry Hitler is reported to have said, adding that he would never again set foot in any event where Karajan conducted. And Karajan was never thereafter in the Fuhrer's inner circle.<br /><br />I thought that the BBC Four film was rather well balanced (from my inexpert point of view )David Damantnoreply@blogger.com